Don't buy the Dynasty Forge Bushi (forge folded) line

by Caleb
(Vancouver)

Dear All,

This is my sincere petition for all to NOT buy the Dynasty Forge Bushi line. THIS IS *NOT* A PROBLEM WITH THE SPECIFIC VENDOR WHICH I'VE GOTTEN IT FROM. So far, all vendors who host listings of these swords (but may not have them in stock) sources their pictures from DYNASTY FORGE (INC.) and the misrepresentation/misleading as outlined below deals with those pictures from DYNASTY and *NOT* the vendors (who uses these seemingly ubiquitous pictures)

I bought a Bushi O-katana. The listing states "Taditional Hada and Hamon" (sic). A picture was included where a blade (with what is generally known as a damascus pattern) is depicted as having two areas of two distinct tones: a darker one and a lighter one. Their boundary is defined by a wave which resembles a Gunome pattern. On the upper side of this boundary, a hazy lightened line follows this wavy pattern...

I got the shipment today. There wasn't such a hazy lightened area. But there were two distint tones. However, that was achieved by abrasion: the Ji portion of the blade is chemically etched to have a frosted, white appearence; the Ha is machine polished to a mirror-like, ~dark~ tone. So I used my hazuya stones to polish it away. Indeed, there were no Hamon: no formation of actual Martensitic crystals. The Ha, being mirror polished, responded better to the Hazuya; the Ji, having been so aggressively etched, has a roughness in texture that conformed with the damascus pattern. So when I polished it, only the "raised" layers where polishable; the recessed, more-aggressively etched areas where somewhat unpolished. But so far, The entire blade seems to be of ONE color *AFTER* polishing. I used an aggressive lemon juice to see if a Hamon will pop out--AS IT DID WITH MY KAZE. No luck there.

So far, I am about 75% sure that there is no hamon. I will keep all updated as I continue to perform tests to reach 100%

As I have damaged my blade by polishing, it is not returnable. I wish to inform you all of this...not misrepresented..but VERY deceiving product. Good hunting to all.

Hell, I just scored a REAL Nihonto off e-baY for $400 US anyway. (It's a 18'' nagasa wakizashi).

Comments for Don't buy the Dynasty Forge Bushi (forge folded) line

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your way off base
by: Anonymous

SO your one bad sword means the entire bushi folded line is bad ?

Thats so unfair that I cant believe Paul is letting this blanket statement of yours stand -

what about the dozens of folded bushi blades that Aaron Justice polishes and mounts for dynasty forge - are all those through hardened and etched ??? Is Aaron faking his blades ???

No of course not - DF and Aaron have many , many
happy customers , My friend Skip Gardner mounts swords proffesionally and has recently started doing commission work for dynasty forge - no way would skip touch a sword that is being falsely sold .

You have one bad sword but want all to not buy the DF bushi blade ?

Hmmm - just what is your agenda I wonder

hamon of the dynasty daimyo class katana
by: iaido from France

Hello
I have a blade from dynasty and i have done the same job with my japanese stone. I agree with Caleb, the blade is machine polished in order to create a hamon but the white color in the blade is just given by abrasion this is not a true differential tempered blade. My katana is a daimyo class forge, in tristeel.
I just want to add that this blade has a nice shape with a good polished kissaki but i really think that the hamon is fake, just an illusion...
PS: sorry for my poor english!

my opinion
by: Anonymous

Hello
I have a blade from dynasty and i have done the same job with my japanese stone. I agree with Caleb, the blade is machine polished in order to create a hamon but the white color in the blade is just given by abrasion this is not a true differential tempered blade. My katana is a daimyo class forge, in tristeel.
I just want to add that this blade has a nice shape with a good polished kissaki but i really think that the hamon is fake, just an illusion...
PS: sorry for my poor english!

dynasty katana
by: Anonymous

Hello
I have a blade from dynasty and i have done the same job with my japanese stone. I agree with Caleb, the blade is machine polished in order to create a hamon but the white color in the blade is just given by abrasion this is not a true differential tempered blade. My katana is a daimyo class forge, in tristeel.
I just want to add that this blade has a nice shape with a good polished kissaki but i really think that the hamon is fake, just an illusion...
PS: sorry for my poor english!

dynasty forge
by: Anonymous

Hello
I have a blade from dynasty and i have done the same job with my japanese stone. I agree with Caleb, the blade is machine polished in order to create a hamon but the white color in the blade is just given by abrasion this is not a true differential tempered blade. My katana is a daimyo class forge, in tristeel.
I just want to add that this blade has a nice shape with a good polished kissaki but i really think that the hamon is fake, just an illusion...
PS: sorry for my poor english!

etching...
by: tom geusz

I had this same problem with Last Legends forge folded line- no apparent hamon.Go to Radio Shack and get some ferric cloride.Pour some into a plastic container add a little dish soap and only a little water.Microwave for 20 seconds.Apply as evenly as possible down the lentghs of both sides of cleaned test blade.At this strength EVERYTHING will show up.Hamon,if there is one will appear black and the rest of the blade will look like a damascus nightmare.
After viewing remove with Semichrome or Flitz mixed with choji or plain mineral oil.
Almost every custom smith does this to his newly forged blades to check hamon and activity.
Please note this is not for nihonto and this is not a final finish.Lemon juice,vineger arent strong enough for a test etch.
Of course now you need to re-do the blade...

They have hamon patterns
by: Aaron Justice

Having repolished about 10 of the Bushi Forge Folded line (and dozens of others in the other lines) YES, they do have hamon patterns. If you could post a picture of your work I might be able to tell you what you did wrong. The etching process for a Bushi FF blade is very different than a mono steel blade like the Kaze.

Also, depending on the level of finish, hitting the blade with hazuya and jizuya will have relatively little result. I had to repolish a Bushi FF Kogarasu maru to a very high extent to get the hamon pattern to show aggressively as the finish was not as high as most are that come from DF. However that was a second quality piece Dynasty sends me to fix up for them, it was not sold to the public.

If anyone wants to see for themselves, they are welcome to look at the customs section at www.DynastyForge.com and look at all the Bushi Forge folded pieces.

Fake hamon
by: Carl

I just read Caleb's comment. I recently had the opportunity to have a look at the Bushi class tri-steel forge-folded 28.5" katana with Musashi mounting supposed to have a clay tempered hamon.
At first glance it's obvious that this so-called hamon is a faked hamon. It's not very fair that Dynasty Forge makes customers believe to get a sword with a real hamon. On the other side it would be too good to get a sword with a hamon for that little money.

Carl
Member of NBTHK European Section

Again? Really?
by: Justice

Caleb, seeing you are a western sword enthusiast, I hope people will consider that on part of your "expertise" on Japanese blades.

In fact... many people have no idea what a fake hamon is. An acid etched hamon is NOT a fake hamon. NO hamon, added by buffing in a fake hamon, or perhaps acid etching an area to give the impression of a real hamon is as well, but Dynasty Forge Bushi line katana have real hamon patterns. I have owned and worked on dozens of them, all of them are differentially hardened, have noticable habuchi outlines of nioi, and interplay with the hada (tsunagashi).

The people replying to these comments saying they do not have a true hamon have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. I hope people research for themselves before making their minds on the subject.

My formal apology
by: Mark (formerly Caleb)

It has been more than a year (2 years?) since I've made that comment and I would now like to submit my apology and humble requests that I may be allowed to "take back" what I said. I take full responsibility that my previous comments--YEARS ago--were more than just an emotional rant, but was clearly intended to be taken as factual/objective, therefore, my equally factual/objective comments now, which contradicts the former, may clearly prove me to be hypocritical. You have absolutely every right to feel that way if you do.

My "company's" (which consists only of a few members ATM) stance on the specific product discussed and its related line/batch of manufacture is that it DOES have a hamon, but it is unclear whether it is a weak hamon, a disconnected hamon, or a hamon that can ONLY be made visible via chemical etching. In consideration of the curiosity that may have arisen regarding this topic, we give you some additional info:

SCENARIO 1: if the hamon is merely weak and I was unable to bring it out, it probably means my skills as polisher was not good enough
SCENARIO 2: if the hamon is disconnected, which highly seems to be the case i.e. the higher carbon layers took on a strong hamon, but not the lower carbon layers in between, therefore the hamon looks like a "sunagashi"... a hamon of many "layers" of a disconnected "hamon's"
SCENARIO 3: some antiques we have worked with MUST be etched in order to form a visible hamon. What we think happened is that martensite did not form inside the border between ha and ji, therefore no "sparkly" effect comes out. With etching, however, the acid pools inside the nioi-guchi because of the steel's natural differenciation of hard and soft. Therefore, the hamon is "etched in", and if etched hard enough, its frosted appearance will survive the burnishing/darkening effects of jizuya. It must be noted, however, an etched-in hamon looks SIGNIFICANTLY different from one with clear martensitic formation.

Since the writing of the previous comment, I have privately apologized to either Paul or a Swords of the East representative (?)... I apologize I cannot remember, but have neglected to comment here, because back then, I didn't have a business and thus thought I normally wouldn't interact with anyone here. It may be a different case now, and I humbly encourage you to give my (under construction) website a visit to validate the albeit very humble credentials in making the above, revised comments, by noting that I now deal with an IMHO very good polisher now, have been learning much from him, and have learned a lot more from being exposed to many customers whom we had the pleasure selling to--quite a few pieces that i would normally never be able to afford. You can also note my positive feedback as seller on Ebay under the user name "klebics"

markmok.com

Thank you for your attention,
Mark Mok
(formerly Caleb Mok)

you all argue that the hamon is fake or real
by: Anonymous

I have a close friend who has a tamahagane katana that he got from Japan imported 20k cost. He took stone to check if hamon was a fake one day. Ruined his sword I strongly encourage ppl not to take stone to any sword with folded steel, tamahagane, or tri steel. Only use stone on solid forged or tool steel swords.

What would they thinK??
by: Sky

First let say that SBG has been very helpful (being a first time buyer), in deciding which sword will be my first Katana. I find it very funny that so many of You are worried about a Japanese Sword with all its find points, that's made in China. While I agree that the Chinese do made some very good copies for the cash...However what would a Master Japanese Swordsmith thing about such complains or conversations?? They are what they are!! Thanks for SBG for telling it like it is...

This article is outdated
by: Anonymous

http://s1347.photobucket.com/user/aeryn_zone/media/DSCN0668_zps32ad54ec.jpg.html

This photo is taken of my own 'O-Katana in Mushashi' in the Bushi line by Dynasty Forge. The blade was forged from a billet of multiple grades of carbon steel, thus the 'layer' effect, but the hamon is definitely visible.

comment removal
by: Aaron

My submission of the pic of the blade in question was deleted. I appreciated it being posted. I don't understand why it was removed. Any particular reason for this action?

Apologies don't change that your uninformed talk slandered a business
by: Anonymous

I hope your business fails. That is what you deserve for talking stupid. All the idiots who posted fake hamon are uneducated and don't know what they are talking about. They should not allow people to post stupid garbage on the internet.

wakizashi
by: Anonymous

I bay fore bat best line tamahagoni

Super ---incredibl expesiv bat I hepi

Caleb Mok is no longer in Canada
by: Caleb Mok

Thank you for your inquiries. Unfortunately I am no longer in Canada. Best wishes to your sword restoration projects. Sincerely, Caleb

Hamon is real!
by: Aaron

This is a photo taken of a blade purchased from Dynasty Forge in 2013 sold under their 'Bushi' class of forged and folded line. Nioi is clearly seen - that can't be faked while sporting Hada. Copy and paste this link to see it: http://s1347.photobucket.com/user/aeryn_zone/media/Morning%20sun%20on%20Musashi.2_zps8e8gxvmu.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Perhaps this article is outdated and should be removed.

justice
by: Anonymous

I just want to post that my experiences of Aarons work have been amazing...I know this is a zombie thread but I just hope if he is still involved in mounting and polishing he sees this and knows his old buddy from sfi limey mick is alive n well he mounted an early Chen musashi for me and the quality was bomb proof later on I sent him a Chen Bushido but fell gravely I'll and 18 months didn't go near a computer , out of the blue a package arrived my Bushido with an amazing new tsuka and a note wishing me well and a p.s to say instead of the production grade same I had sent him he used some he had laying around, a full same wrap with huge emperor nodes and stained to better match my choice of ito .

Aaron justice a class act !

special mention for paul of sbg ..I remember you starting it all mate.

Marc Karen ridgeway ...will you ever let me forget that musashi tsuba ? Lola

all the best

limey mick

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